Reformacija islama

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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lavlje_srce »

Rockefeller wrote:Sem Bosanaca ja ne vidim da iko drugi ima kapacitet da to uradi. Ostali islamski svijet je uglavnom poput životinjskog carstva, svakakvih životinja ali ipak samo životinje, štakora najviše.
Ne slazem se da Bosanci imaju kapacitet povesti islamski svijet putem mira i prosperiteta, posebno ne na nacin na koji ti predlazes (filtracijom imigranata po kategoriji obrazovanja i IQ-a). Bosanaca je u apsolutnim brojkama premalo i razjedinjeni su kako po pitanju odnosa prema vjeri tako i politicki. Uz to se desilo unazadjenje ekonomije a posljedicno i svijesti za barem 50 godina tijekom cerecenja Bosne. Na sve to se desilo strasno postratno otrjeznjenje, sa masovnom korupcijom i nepotizmom. Sve pozitivno sto su Bosanci na svjetskom planu stekli visokim stupnjem civiliziranosti u ratnim uvjetima, izgubili su predajom vlasti u ruke pohlepnim, malogradjanskim i sitnosicardzijskim vlastima.

Dakle ovo sto pises je samo tvoja imaginacija, pozitivna ali nerealna nazalost; infrastruktura zemlje ne da nije obnovljena nego putujuci kroz Bosnu se mozes upitati o postojanju paralelnih svijetova zbog krajnje bijede i zaostalosti. Tvornicki kapaciteti nisu obnovljeni, edukacija je na niskom i upitnom stupnju, o vjeri se nikad vise nije govorilo a nikad se manje nije manifestirala kroz odgoj i ponasanje stanovnika, dakle zemlja je u izuzetno teskom stanju. Desilo se to i drugima; Afganistanci su prilicno sofisticiran narod koji se potpuno izgubio kroz silna ratovanja, o Irancima i njihovoj ljubavi za kulturu i naobrazbu da i ne govorimo (a zive poput zvijeri koje se plase vlastite sjene).

U vjeru se ne moze dekretom, jedino samovoljno, istinski sekularizam je put naprijed za Bosnu i region po mom misljenju. I to ne znaci da ce vjera biti beznacajna nego ce biti znacajna onima koji su istinski vjernici. Pa ako ateiste necemu dobrom nauce, dobro je. Ako ne, mozemo kriviti samo sebe. Ovo ti kazem kao osoba koja vjeruje ali je svjesna da teokracija ne moze biti put naprijed za bilo koje drustvo. Metodima prisile mozes uvesti svakog stanovnika u vjeru ali tako radjas masu nezadovoljnika i licemjera koji ce ti dugorocno stetiti barem onoliko koliko i ekstremi.

Sam Bog nam je rekao: 'Citaj, u ime Gospodara tvoga koji stvara, stvara čovjeka od ugruska! Citaj, plemenit je Gospodar tvoj, koji poucava peru, koji covjeka poucava onome sto ne zna.' (El-Alaqa, 1 - 5) Nema napretka bez znanja, bez razvijanja ljubavi prema znanju, bez sirenja vidika svima i za sve. I samim tim ce se desiti promjene, jer one se mogu desiti samo iznutra.

Evo sta na temu reforme fikha (tumacenja Islama) kaze jedna pametna i obrazovana muslimanka i izvod iz Encyclopaedia Britannica.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Rockefeller »

Salahuddin wrote: Izvini, ne slazem se. Oni su lider jer su se nametnuli kao lider. Kakva ideja? O ljudskim pravima? Kada ono Amerika oslobodi robove? I je li njih, zbog te njihove ideje, neko zvao da pravi red u zemljama koje apsolutno nisu bile za to da im Amerikanci donose nikakve nove ideje? Mani se te price. Nista oni novo nemaju da ponude. Ovdje je sistem nemilosrdan prema onima koji imaju nekakvu fizickiu ili psihicku manu, koja ih onemogucava da rade isto kao i oni koji nemaju te mane. Jebes mi sve ako me to ne podsjeca na Hitlera. Zato, neka njihova ideja njima. Neka je ne sire svijetom, gurajuci je niz grlo i onima koji je ne prihvataju.
Pa nametnuli se kao lider. Predvode svijet u nečem novom. Da nisu izmislili nešto novo nikad se ne bi nametnuli kao lideri.

Ideja Amerike otprilike ovako glasi: Amerika - svi ljudi, bez obzira na sve svoje razlike, su jednaki pred zakonom. I njihova sreća i njihov uspjeh su odvisni samo od njihovog talenta.

I to je fakat novo u odnosu na ono što je svijet, posebno Europa, do tada imao; strogo utvrdjene hijerarhije, klasno društvo, ograničene slobode i gradjane drugog reda. Doduše Europa i svijet ni danas dan ne mogu da se poštenije približe ovim idealima. Priznaju ih kao ispravne ali im njihovo staro, njihov dosadašnji način djelovanja ne da da se približe.

Napomena: možda sam ti slučajno izbrisao koje slovo u ovom što sam quotao. Ne uzimaj za zlo, bilo je slučajno.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by storm »

Ako odem malo u off .... mislim da nigdje nema toliko miljunaša osuđenih kao u americi ... glumaca, sportaša....lagano ih potrpaju za porez, da ne navodim neki drugi krimen...
Habibti, ya nour el - ain... :srce
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Zagorka »

zašto pišete o nečemu što se nikad neće dogoditi?
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lebowski »

Zagorka wrote:zašto pišete o nečemu što se nikad neće dogoditi?
Hoće, hoće. :djed

Inshallah
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Zagorka »

aha,dobro........... :kafa u tom slučaju ću tada govoriti o tome.......
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by STrendzer »

Lebowski wrote:
Zagorka wrote:zašto pišete o nečemu što se nikad neće dogoditi?
Hoće, hoće. :djed

Inshallah

Mora se nesto promijenit,mora,ne mozemo ovako opstat!..."ne mosh se sa rogatim bosti,osim ako i sam nisi roagt"!!!!
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lebowski »

Ljudi moji.. ne igrajte se Boga, samo on zna šta će se dogoditi. :D

Iskustvo i historija nas uči da će i islam doživjeti promjene ako mu damo dovoljno vremena. :djed
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Zagorka »

Lebowski wrote:Ljudi moji.. ne igrajte se Boga, samo on zna šta će se dogoditi. :D

Iskustvo i historija nas uči da će i islam doživjeti promjene ako mu damo dovoljno vremena. :djed
Svašta...............tobejarabi........... :kafa
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by STrendzer »

be mi se na iskustvo i historiju koja me uci,ako vidim da svaki dan gine bezbroj ljudi koji vjeruju u istog Boga kao i ja!!!!

i to ginu k'o kruske,k'o zlatne divljake,nit duzni nit krivi...a nit svjesni svega toga!
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lebowski »

Salahuddin wrote:
Lebowski wrote:Ljudi moji.. ne igrajte se Boga, samo on zna šta će se dogoditi. :D

Iskustvo i historija nas uči da će i islam doživjeti promjene ako mu damo dovoljno vremena. :djed
Ako aludiras na krscanstvo, to ne znaci nista. Kur'an u sebi sadrzi "odbrambene mehanizme" koji ga cuvaju od bilo kakvog dopisivanja ili oduzimanja (opet ponavljam, negdje sam to vec napisao, Kur'an treba procitati pa onda pricati o njemu). Svako ko bi se upustio u avanturu "reforme", pa makar to bio i projekat na nekom drzavnom nivou, susreo bi se sa jednim ogromnim problemom. Muslimanima.

Da.. ali vidiš evo i ovdje da ima muslimana koji drugačije razmišljaju, koji bi nešto mijenjali .. jel da? Možda sitnice, al sitnica po sitnica..Ako takvi postanu većina pa moguće je..

A aludiram na sve religije..
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lebowski »

Toliko tih sitnica ima a već sam se napisao.. Možda sutra.

Ovako na brzinu... "Smanjio" bih značaj Muhammeda as i generalno Božijij poslanika. Kad bih imao mehanizme za to al rećeš da nemam jer Kur'an to ne dozvoljava.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Krokodil Behko »

Ja bih uveo pozorište. Ne postoji osnov za zabranu. To nigdje ne piše u Kuranu.
Uostalom, film im je dozvoljen, a šta je film ako ne scenska umjetnost, kao i pozorište? :cudi
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Re: Reformacija islama

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Ma da.. A i ono što ruše kipove i starine nije u redu.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lavlje_srce »

Lebowski wrote:Hoće, hoće. :djed

Inshallah
Naravno da hoce i mijenja se. Turska (za koju Salahuddin tvrdi da je ocuvala Islam) je potpuno izbacila serijat iz zakona 1926. Promjene su se desile u vecini muslimanskih zemalja glede ubracivanja (tj. prisiljavanja na brak) djece ispod 16 i 18 godina, kao i glede poligamie koja je napustena diljem muslimanskog svijeta i zenskih prava. Promjene teku malim koracima ali se desavaju. Vec sam postavila link na ovaj clanak, evo copy-paste sada pa mozda neko procita:

Od arapskih plemena pa do nasih dana:

Reform of Sharīʿah law

Traditional Islamic family law reflected to a large extent the patriarchal scheme of Arabian tribal society in the early centuries of Islam. Not unnaturally certain institutions and standards of that law were felt to be out of line with the circumstances of contemporary Muslim society, particularly in urban areas where tribal ties had disintegrated and movements for the emancipation of women had arisen. At first this situation seemed to create the same apparent impasse between the changing circumstances of modern life and an allegedly immutable law that had caused the adoption of Western codes in civil and criminal matters. Hence, the only solution that seemed possible to Turkey in 1926 was the total abandonment of the Sharīʿah and the adoption of Swiss family law in its place. No other Muslim country, however, has as yet followed this example. Instead, traditional Sharīʿah law has been adapted in a variety of ways to meet present social needs.

From the outset the dominating issue in the Middle East has been the question of the juristic basis of reforms—i.e., granted their social desirability, their justification in terms of Islamic jurisprudential theory, so that the reforms appear as a new, but legitimate, version of the Sharīʿah. In the early stages of the reform movement, the doctrine of taqlīd (unquestioning acceptance) was still formally observed and the juristic basis of reform lay in the doctrine of siyāsah, or “government,” which allows the political authority (who, of course, has no legislative power in the real sense of the term) to make administrative regulations of two principal types.

The first type concerns procedure and evidence and restricts the jurisdiction of the Sharīʿah courts in the sense that they are instructed not to entertain cases that do not fulfill defined evidential requirements. Thus, an Egyptian law was enacted in 1931 that no disputed claim of marriage was to be entertained where the marriage could not be proved by an official certificate of registration, and no such certificate could be issued if the bride was younger than 16 or the bridegroom younger than 18 years of age at the time of the contract. Accordingly the marriage of a minor contracted by the guardian was still perfectly valid but would not, if disputed, be the subject of judicial relief from the courts. In theory the doctrine of the traditional authorities was not contradicted, but in practice an attempt had been made to abolish the institution of child marriage. The second type of administrative regulation was a directive to the courts as to which particular rule among existing variants they were to apply. This directive allowed the political authority to choose from the views of the different schools and jurists the opinion that was deemed best suited to present social circumstances. For example, the traditional Ḥanafī law in force in Egypt did not allow a wife to petition for divorce on the ground of any matrimonial offense committed by the husband, a situation that caused great hardship to abandoned or ill-treated wives. Mālikī law, however, recognizes the wife’s right to judicial dissolution of her marriage on grounds such as the husband’s cruelty, failure to provide maintenance and support, and desertion. Accordingly, an Egyptian law of 1920 codified the Mālikī law as the law henceforth to be applied by the Sharīʿah courts.

By way of comparison, reform in the matters of child marriage and divorce was effected in the Indian subcontinent by statutory enactments that directly superseded the traditional Ḥanafī law. The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929, prohibited the marriage of girls younger than 14 and boys younger than 16 under pain of penalties; while the Dissolution of Muslim Marriages Act, 1939, modelled on the English Matrimonial Causes Acts, allowed a Ḥanafī wife to obtain judicial divorce on the standard grounds of cruelty, desertion, failure to maintain, etc.

In the Middle East, by the 1950s, the potential for legal reform under the principle of siyāsah had been exhausted. Since that time the basic doctrine of taqlīd has been challenged to an ever-increasing degree. On many points the law recorded in the medieval manuals, insofar as it represents the interpretations placed by the early jurists upon the Qurʾān and the Sunnah, has been held no longer to have a paramount and exclusive authority. Contemporary jurisprudence has claimed the right to renounce those interpretations and to interpret for itself, independently and afresh in the light of modern social circumstances, the original texts of divine revelation: in short, to reopen the door of ijtihād that had been in theory closed since the 10th century.

The developing use of ijtihād as a means of legal reform may be seen through a comparison of the terms of the Syrian law of Personal Status (1953) with those of the Tunisian Law of Personal Status (1957) in relation to the two subjects of polygamy and divorce by repudiation (ṭalāq).

As regards polygamy the Syrian reformers argued that the Qurʾān itself urges husbands not to take additional wives unless they are financially able to make proper provision for their maintenance and support. Classical jurists had construed this verse as a moral exhortation binding only on the husband’s conscience. But the Syrian reformers maintained that it should be regarded as a positive legal condition precedent to the exercise of polygamy and enforced as such by the courts. This novel interpretation was then coupled with a normal administrative regulation that required the due registration of marriages after the permission of the court to marry had been obtained. The Syrian Law accordingly enacts: “The qāḍī may withhold permission for a man who is already married to marry a second wife, where it is established that he is not in a position to support them both.” Far more extreme, however, is the approach of the Tunisian reformers. They argued that, in addition to a husband’s financial ability to support a plurality of wives, the Qurʾān also required that co-wives should be treated with complete impartiality. This Qurʾānic injunction should also be construed, not simply as a moral exhortation, but as a legal condition precedent to polygamy, in the sense that no second marriage should be permissible unless and until adequate evidence was forthcoming that the wives would in fact be treated impartially. But under modern social and economic conditions such impartial treatment was a practical impossibility. And since the essential condition for polygamy could not be fulfilled the Tunisian Law briefly declares: “Polygamy is prohibited.”

With regard to ṭalāq the Syrian law provided that a wife who had been repudiated without just cause might be awarded compensation by the court from her former husband to the maximum extent of one year’s maintenance. The reform was once again represented as giving practical effect to certain Qurʾānic verses that had been generally regarded by traditional jurisprudence as moral rather than legally enforceable injunctions—namely, those verses that enjoin husbands to “make a fair provision” for repudiated wives and to “retain wives with kindness or release them with consideration.” The effect of the Syrian law, then, is to subject the husband’s motive for repudiation to the scrutiny of the court and to penalize him, albeit to a limited extent, for abuse of his power. Once again, however, the Tunisian ijtihād concerning repudiation is far more radical. Here the reformers argued that the Qurʾān orders the appointment of arbitrators in the event of discord between husband and wife. Clearly a pronouncement of repudiation by a husband indicated a state of discord between the spouses. Equally clearly the official courts were best suited to undertake the function of arbitration that then becomes necessary according to the Qurʾān. It is on this broad ground that the Tunisian law abolishes the right of a husband to repudiate his wife extrajudicially and enacts that: “Divorce outside a court of law is without legal effect.” Although the court must dissolve the marriage if the husband persists in his repudiation, it has an unlimited power to grant the wife compensation for any damage she has sustained from the divorce—although in practice this power has so far been used most sparingly. In regard to polygamy and ṭalāq therefore, Tunisia has achieved by reinterpretation of the Qurʾān reforms hardly less radical than those effected in Turkey some 30 years previously by the adoption of the Swiss Civil Code.

In Pakistan a new interpretation of the Qurʾān and Sunnah was the declared basis of the reforms introduced by the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance of 1961, although the provisions of the Ordinance in relation to polygamy and ṭalāq are much less radical than the corresponding Middle Eastern reforms, since a second marriage is simply made dependent upon the consent of an Arbitration Council and the effect of a husband’s repudiation is merely suspended for a period of three months to afford opportunity for reconciliation.

Judicial decisions in Pakistan have also unequivocally endorsed the right of independent interpretation of the Qurʾān. For example, in Khurshīd Bībī v. Muḥammad Amīn (1967) the Supreme Court held that a Muslim wife could as a right obtain a divorce simply by payment of suitable compensation to her husband. This decision was based on the Court’s interpretation of a relevant Qurʾānic verse. But under traditional Sharīʿah law this form of divorce, known as khulʿ, whereby a wife pays for her release, is a contract between the spouses and as such entirely dependent upon the husband’s free consent.

These are but a few examples of the many far-reaching changes that have been effected in the Islamic family law. But the whole process of legal reform as it has so far developed still involves great problems of principle and practice. A hard core of traditionalist opinion still adamantly rejects the validity of the process of reinterpretation of the basic texts of divine revelation. The traditionalists argue that the texts are merely being manipulated to yield the meaning that suits the preconceived purposes of the reformers, and that therefore, contrary to fundamental Islamic ideology, it is social desirability and not the will of Allah that is the ultimate determinant of the law.

As regards the practical effect of legal reform, there exists in many Muslim countries a deep social gulf between a Westernized and modernist minority, and the conservative mass of the population. Reforms that aim at satisfying the standards of progressive urban society have little significance for the traditionalist communities of rural areas or for the Muslim fundamentalists, whose geographical and social distribution crosses all apparent boundaries. It is also often the case that the qāḍīs, through their background and training, are not wholly sympathetic with the purposes of the modernist legislators—an attitude often reflected in their interpretations of the new codes.

Such problems are, of course, inevitable in the transitional stage of social evolution in which Islam finds itself. But the one supreme achievement of jurisprudence over the past few decades has been the emergence of a functional approach to the question of the role of law in society. Jurisprudence has discarded the introspective and idealistic attitude that the doctrine of taqlīd had imposed upon it since early medieval times and now sees its task to be the solution of the problems of contemporary society. It has emerged from a protracted period of stagnation to adopt again the attitude of the earliest Muslim jurists, whose aim was to relate the dictates of the divine will to their own social environment. It is this attitude alone that has ensured the survival of the Sharīʿah in modern times as a practical system of law and that alone provides its inspiration for the future.
Last edited by Lavlje_srce on 11 Jan 2015, 01:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Krokodil Behko »

Salahuddin wrote:
Krokodil Behko wrote:Ja bih uveo pozorište. Ne postoji osnov za zabranu. To nigdje ne piše u Kuranu.
Uostalom, film im je dozvoljen, a šta je film ako ne scenska umjetnost, kao i pozorište? :cudi
Za to uopste ne postoji prepreka u Islamu. Sad, drugi je par opanaka sto se na KSA i neke arapske zemlje gleda kao u primjer sta je haram a sta halal.
Negdje sam čitao, da je to na osnovu nekog hadisa, a zaprepastih se kako se to bukvalno tumači.

Navodno je Muhamed s.a.v.s. negdje na trgu vidio pripitog čovjeka, kako glumata nešto, zabavlja masu, priča neke viceve i gluposti. Tad je navodno rekao kako je to pokudno i kako on samoga sebe srozava i tako nešto.
Na osnovu toga, neki su došli do zaključka da bi gluma trebala biti zabranjena.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by paparaci »

Calla wrote:citiram Salahudinovu zadnju napisanu recenicu,

,,Turci su ti koji su sacuvali Islam!"

Turci koji su sacuvali svoj islam u Turskoj bolje prolaze sa svojim nacinom vjere ,nego turski i svi ostali muslimani koji zive po evropskim krscanskim zemljama !
Upravo u evropskim krscanskim zemljama gdje zive rade i mole potrebna je reforma i sve vise alternativnih islamskih novih ucitelja koji mogu mladima pokazati da se moze zajedno zivjeti i suradivati i sa drugim kulturama i religijama,
a da se pritome ne moraju radikalizirati!

najvise se, pa haman se usudjujem reci i samo, radikaliziraju osobe koje naglo stupe u vjeru. uz to obicno nisu plaho nadareni pamecu i tolerancijom. uz to sve, vjeru obicno uce od sumnjivih likova, umjesto na pravom mjestu.
Calla wrote:
Primjera radi da citanje kurana moze biti samo jednoispravno i najtacnije najidealnije ako se uci na arapskom jeziku!!

Salahudine Paparacii :mrgud :jok :ble
:ha

Ne ide, Calla. Ne ide. :oo :p
NeK pUkNu DuSmAnI...

:srce S a n i c a - G r m e č :srce
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lebowski »

Salahuddin wrote:
Lebowski wrote:Ma da.. A i ono što ruše kipove i starine nije u redu.
Ti kipovi i mnoge druge stvari su prezivjele dok su vladali halife i sultani koji su poznavali islam. Kad su neznalice dosle na vlast, desilo se to sto se desilo.
To mi liči na nekakav začarani krug..

Oni kažu da su radili po islamu, ovi kažu da rade po islamu a rade potpuno suprotne stvari a opet sve je jasno rečeno, nema nikakvih zabuna, savršena knjiga...

Nikakva promjena nije moguća a opet promijenilo se.

Kad neko sa strane posmatra ne može mu biti najjasnije sve to.. Nadam se da razumiješ.
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lavlje_srce »

Salahuddin wrote:
'elem, puno srece zelim Koaliciji za Reforme jer ce im biti potrebna. :sjedi
Ne treba nama sreca, dovoljan je zdrav razum.

Liberalni pokreti unutar Islama ;)

Selam Arizoni. Hoce li uskoro preci na serijat?
Memento Mori

You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. ~C.S.Lewis~


You're hiding to breathe, running from me
Do you rea-lly wanna be in love?
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Re: Reformacija islama

Post by Lebowski »

Salahuddin wrote:
Lebowski wrote:Toliko tih sitnica ima a već sam se napisao.. Možda sutra.

Ovako na brzinu... "Smanjio" bih značaj Muhammeda as i generalno Božijij poslanika. Kad bih imao mehanizme za to al rećeš da nemam jer Kur'an to ne dozvoljava.
Islam ne postoji bez Poslanika (mnozina). Muhamed a.s je taj koji je prenio Kur'an. Na nove "izazove" muslimana u modernom drustvu, upotrebljava se analogija. "Sta je radio Muhamed a.s u slicnim uslovima/prilikama". Nemoguce je smanjiti vaznost osobe za koju se vjeruje da je bolji od svih koji su se rodili prije njega i onih koji ce se roditi poslije njega. Njegov zivot je arsin po kome se donose fetve. Kratko, nemoguce je smanjiti vaznost osobe u Islamu, a ta osoba je ustvari covjek koji je prenijeo Islam na ostatak muslimanskog svijeta.
Sta je Muhamed radio u slicnim istim prilikama? Ne vidis tu nikakav problem.. ili bar necijoj interpretaciji..
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